FRANZ SUCHOMEL
What was the capacity of the new gas-chambers ?
There were 2 of them, right?
Yes. But the old ones hadn't been demolished.
When there were a lot of trains, a lot of people,
the old ovens were put back into service.
And here... the Jews say there were 5 on each side.
l say there were 4,
but l'm not sure.
ln any case, only the upper row, on this side,
was in action.
Why not the other side ?
Disposing the bodies would have been to complicated.
Too far ?
Yes. Up there, Wirth had built the death camp,
assigning a detail of Jewish workers to it.
The detail had a fixer number in it,
around 200 people,
who worked only in the death camp.
But what was the capacity of the new gas-chambers ?
The new gas-chambers... Let's see... They could
finish off 3,000 people in two hours.
How many people at once in a single gas-chamber ?
l can't say exactly. The Jews say 200.
200 ?
That's right, 200.
lmagine a room this size.
They put more in at Auschwitz.
Auschwitz was a factory !
And Treblinka ?
l'll give you my definition.
Keep this is mind :
Treblinka was a primitive,
but efficient production line of death.
A production line ?
Of death. Understand ?
Yes.
But primitive...?
Primitive, yes.
But it worked well, that production line of death.
Was Belzec even more rudimentary ?
Belzec was the laboratory.
Wirth was camp commandant.
He tried everything imaginable there.
He got off on the wrong foot.
The pits were overflowing
and the cesspool seeped out in front of the SS mess-hall.
lt stank... in front of the mess-hall,
in front of their barracks.
Were you at Belzec ?
No. Wirth with his own men.
With Franz, with Oberhauser
and Hackenhold... he tried everything there.
Those 3 had to put the bodies in the pits themselves
so that Wirth could see how much space he needed.
And when they rebelled... Franz refused...
Wirth beat Franz with a whip.
He whipped Hackenhold, too. You see ?
Kurt Franz ?
Kurt Franz.
That's how Wirth was. Then, with that experience behind
he came to Treblinka.
Excuse me.
How many quarts of beer a day do you sell ?
You can't tell me ?
l'd rather not. l have my reasons.
But why not ?
How many quarts of beer a day do you sell ?
Go on, tell him.
Tell him what ?
Just tell him approximately.
400, 500 quarts.
That's a lot !
Have you worked here long ?
Around 20 years.
Why are you hiding...
l have my reasons.
your face ?
l have my reasons.
What reasons ?
Never mind.
Why not ?
Do you recognize this man ?
No ? Christian Wirth ?
Mr. Oberhauser !
Do you remember Belzec ?
No memories of Belzec ?
Of the overflowing graves ?
You don't remember ?
MUNlCH
WUPPERAL : ANTON SPlESS, German state prosecutor
at the TREBLlNKA trial (Frankfurt, 1960)
When the Action itself first got under way,
it was almost totally improvised.
At Treblinka, for example,
the commandant, Eberl, let more trains come in
than the camp could handle.
lt was a disaster !
Mountains of corpses !
Word of this foul-up
reached the head of the Reinhard Action,
Odilo Globocznik, in Lublin.
He went to Treblinka
to see what was happening.
There's a very concrete account of the trip
by his former driver, Oberhauser.
Globocznik arrived on a hot day in August.
The camp was permeated
with the stench of rotting flesh.
Globocznik didn't even bother to enter the camp.
He stopped here, before the commandant's office,
sent for Eberl and greeted him
with these words :
''How dare you accept so many every day
''when you can only process 3,000 ?''
Operations were suspended,
Eberl was transferred and Wirth came,
followed immediately by Stangl,
and the camp was completely reorganized.
The Reinhard Action covered 3 extermination camp :
Treblinka, Sobibor and Belsec.
There's also talk of 3 death camps on the Bug River,
for they were all located on or near the Bug.
The gas-chambers were the heart of the camp.
They were built first,
in a wood, or in a field, as at Treblinka.
The gas-chambers were the only stone buildings.
All the others were wooden sheds.
These camps weren't built to last.
Himmler was in a hurry to begin the ''final solution''.
The Germans had to capitaliz on their eastward advance
and use this remote back-country to carry out
their mass murder as secretely as possible.
So at first they couldn't manage
the perfection they achieved 3 months later.
Near the end of March 1942,
sizeable groups of Jews were herded here,
groups of 50 to 100 people.
Several trains arrived
with sections of barracks with posts, barbed wire, bricks...
and construction of the camp as such began.
The Jews unloaded these cars
and carted the sections of barracks to the camp.
The Germans made them work extremely fast.
When we saw the pace they worked at...
lt was extremely brutal.
When we saw the complex being built, and the fence,
which, after all, enclosed a vast space,
we realized that what the Germans were building
wasn't meant to aid mankind.
Early in June,
the first convoy arrived.
l'd say there were over 40 cars.
With the convoy were SS men in black uniforms.
lt happened one afternoon. He had just finished work.
JAN PlWONSKl
But he got on his bicycle and went home.
Why ?
l merely thought
these people had come to build the camp,
as the others has before them.
That convoy...
There was no way of knowing that it was
the first earmarked for extermination.
Besides,
he couldn't have known that Sobibor would be
a place for the mass extermination of the Jewish.
The next morning, when l came here to work,
the station was absolutely silent,
and we realized,
after talking with the Poles who worked at the station here
that something utterly incomprehensible had happened.
First of all, when the camp was being built,
there were orders shouted in German, there were screams,
Jews were working at the run there were shots,
and here there was that silence,
no work crews,
a really total silence.
40 cars had arrived, and then... nothing.
lt was all very strange.
lt was the silence that tipped them off ?
That's right.
Can he describe that silence ?
lt was a silence...
Nothing was going on in the camp. You heard nothing.
Nothing moved.
So then they began to wonder,
''Where have they put those Jews ?''
Cell 13, Block 1 1 at Auschwitz 1 ,
is where the Special Work Detail was held.
The cell was underground, isolated.
For we were...
''bearers of secrets'', we were reprieved dead men.
We weren't allowed to talk to anyone,
or contact any prisoner,
or even the SS.
Only those is charge of the ''Action''.
There was a window.
We heard what happened in the courtyard.
The executions, the victims' cries,
the screams, but he couldn't see anything.
This went on for several days.
One night an SS man came
from the political section.
lt was around 4 A.M.
The whole camp was still asleep.
There wasn't a sound in the camp.
We were again taken out of our cell,
and led to the crematorium.
Theren, for the first time, l saw
the procedure used
with those who came in alive.
We were lined up against a wall,
and told : ''No one may talk to those people''.
Suddenly, the wooden door to the crematorium courtyard
opened, and 250 to 300 people filed in.
old people, and women.
They carried bundles, wore the Star of David.
Even from a distance, l could tell
they were Polish Jews,
probably from Upper Silesia,
from the Sosnowitz ghetto, some 20 miles from Auschwitz.
FlLlP MULLER
l caught some of the things they said.
l heard ''fachowitz'',
meaning ''skilled worker''.
And ''Malach-ha-Mawis'',
which means ''the angel of death'' in Yiddish.
Also, ''harginnen'' : ''they're going to kill us''.
From what l could hear,
l clearly understood the struggle going on inside them.
Sometimes they spoke of work probably hoping
that they'd be put to work.
Or they spoke of ''Malach-ha- Mawis'', the angel of death.
The conflicting words echoed the conflict in their feelings.
Then a sudden silence
fell over those gathered in the crematorium courtyard.
All eyes converged
on the flat roof of the crematorium.
Who was standing there ?
Aumeyer, of the SS,
Grabner, the head of the political section,
And Hossler, the SS officer.
Aumeyer addressed the crowd:
''You're here to work,
''for our soldiers fighting at the front.
''Those who can work will be all right.''
lt was obvious
that hope flared in those people.
You could feel it clearly.
The executioners had gotten past the first obstacle.
He saw it was succeeding.
Then Grabner spoke up :
''We need masons, electricians,
''all the trades.''
Next, Hossler took over.
He pointed to a short man in the crowd.
l can still see him.
''What's your trade ?''
The man said,
''Mr. Officer, l'm a tailor.''
''A tailor ? What kind of a tailor ?''
''A man's... No, for both men and women.''
''Wonderful ! We need people like you in our workshops.''
Then he questioned a woman :
''What's your trade ?''
''Nurse'', she replied.
''Splendid ! We need nurses in our hospitals
''for our soldiers.
''We need all of you ! But first, undress.
''You must be disinfected.
''We want you healthy.''
l could see the people were calmer,
reassured by what they'd heard,
and they began to undress.
Even if they still had their doubts,
if you want to live, you must hope.
Their clothing remained in the courtyard,
scattered everywhere.
Aumeyer was beaming, very proud of how
he'd handled things.
He turned to some of the SS men and told them :
''You see ? That's the way to do it !''
By this device,
a great leap forward had been made :
Now the clothing could be used.
RAUL HlLBERG, historian
FRANZ SCHALLlNG
First, explain to me...
How you came to Kulmhof to Chelmno?
You were at Lodz, right ?
ln Lodz, yes.
ln Litzmannstadt.
We were on permanent guard duty.
Protecting military objectives : mills,
the roads, when Hitler went to East Prussia.
lt was dreary, and we were told :
''We're looking for men wanted to break out of this routine.
So we volunteered.
We were issued winter uniforms,
overcoats, fur hats, fur-lined boots,
and 2 or 3 days later we were told, ''We're off!''
We were put aboard 2 or 3 trucks...
l don't know... they had benches,
and we rode and rode.
Finally we arrived.
The place was crawling with SS men and police.
Our first question was : ''What goes on here ?''
They said, ''You'll find out !''
You'll find out ?
You'll find out.
You weren't in the SS, you were...
Police.
Which police ?
Security guards.
We were ordered to report to the Deutsche Haus...
The only big stone building in the village.
We were taken into it.
An SS man immediately told us :
''This is a top secret mission !''
Secret ?
''A top secret mission''.
''Sign this !'' We each had to sign.
There was a form ready for each of us.
What did it say ?
lt was a pledge of secrecy.
We never even got to read it through.
You had to take an oath ?
No, just sign, promusing to...
...shut up about whatever we'd see.
Shut up ?
Not say a word.
After we'd signed, we were told : ''Final solution
''of the Jewish question.''
We didn't understand what that meant.
So someone said...
He told us what was going to happen there.
Someone said ''the final solution of the Jewish question''.
You'd be assigned to the ''final solution'' ?
Yes, but what did that mean ?
We'd never heard that before.
So it was explained to us.
Just when was this ?
Let's see... when was it...?
ln the winter of 1941 -42.
Then we were assigned to our stations.
Our guard post was at the side of the road.
A sentry box in front of the castle.
So you were in the ''castle detail'' ?
That's right.
Can you describe what you saw ?
We could see. We were at the gatehouse.
When the Jews arrived, the way they looked :
half-frozen, starved, dirty,
already half-dead. Old people, children.
Think of it ! The long trip here
standing in a truck, packed in !
Who knows if they knew what was in store !
They didn't trust anyone, that's for sure.
After months in the ghetto, you can imagine !
l heard an SS man shout at them :
''You're going to be de-loused,
''and have a bath.
''You're going to work here.''
The Jews consented.
They said, ''Yes, that's what we want to do.''
Was the castle big ?
Pretty big, with huge front steps.
The SS man stood at the top of the steps.
Then what happened ?
They were hustled into 2 or 3 big rooms on the first floor.
They had to undress, give up everything :
rings, gold, everything.
How long did the Jews stay there ?
Long enough to undress.
Then, stark naked, they had to run down more steps
to an underground corridor
that led back up to the ramp,
where the gas van awaited them.
Did the Jews enter the van willingly ?
No, they were beaten.
Blows fell everywhere,
and the Jews understood. They screamed.
lt was frightful ! Frightful !
l know, because we went down to the cellar
when they were all in the van.
We opened the cells of the work detail,
the Jewish workers, who collected
the things thrown out of the 1st-floor window into there.
Describe the gas vans.
Like moving vans.
Very big ?
They stretched, say,
from here to the window.
Just big trucks,
like moving vans, with 2 rear doors.
What system was used ?
How did they kill them ?
With exhaust fumes.
Exhaust fumes ?
lt went like this : a Pole yelled, ''Gas !''
Then the driver got under the van
to hook up the pipe
that fed the gas into the van.
Yes, but how ?
From the motor.
Yes, but through what ?
A pipe... a tube.
He fiddled around under the truck.
l'm not sure how.
lt was just exhaust gas ?
That's all.
Who were the drivers ?
SS men.
All those men were SS.
Were there many of these drivers ?
l don't know.
Were there 2, 3, 5, 1 O ?
Not that many. 2 or 3, that's all.
l thinks there were 2 vans,
one big, one smaller.
Did the driver sit
in the cabin of the van ?
Mrs. Uwe ?
No.
He climbed into the cabin after the doors were closed
and started the motor.
Did he race the motor ?
l don't know.
Could you hear the sound of the motor ?
Yes, from the gate we could hear it turn over.
Was it a loud noise ?
The noise of a truck engine.
The van was stationary while the motor ran ?
That's right.
Then it started moving.
We opened the gate and it headed for the woods.
Were the people already dead ?
l don't know.
lt was quiet. No more screams.
No screams.
You couldn't hear anything as they drove by.
He recalls : it was 1941 , 2 days before the New Year.
They were routed out at night,
and in the morning they reached Chelmno.
There was a castle there.
When he entered the castle courtyard,
he knew something awful was going on.
He already understood.
The site of the castle
They saw clothes and shoes
scattered in the courtyard.
Yet they were alone there.
He knews his parents has been through there,
and there wasn't a Jew left.
They were taken down into a cellar.
On a wall was written, ''No one leaves here alive.''
Graffiti in Yiddish.
There were lots of names.
He thinks it was the Jews from villages around Chelmno
who had come before him, who had written their names.
A few days after New Year's,
they heard people arrive in a truck one morning.
The people were taken out of the truck
and up to the first floor of the castle.
The Germans lied, saying there were to be deloused.
They were chased down the other side,
where a van was waiting.
The Germans pushed and beat them with their weapons
to hustle them into the trucks faster.
He heard people praying : ''Shma lsrael'',
and he heard the van'srear doors being shut.
Their screams were heard,
becoming fainter and fainter,
and when there was total silence,
the van left.
He and the 4 others were brought out of the cellar.
They went upstairs
and gathered up the clothes remaining
outside the supposed baths.
Did he understand then how they'd died ?
MORDECHAl PODCHLEBNlK,
the survivor of the 1st period of extermination
at CHELMNO
(the castel period)
Yes, first because there had been rumors of it.
And when he went out, he saw the sealed vans, so he knew.
He understood that people were gassed in the vans ?
Yes, because he'd heard the screams,
and heard how they weakened,
and later the vans were taken into the woods.
What were the vans like ?
Like the one that deliver cigarettes here.
They were enclosed, with double-leaf rear doors.
What color ?
The color the Germans used, green, ordinary.
MARTHA MlCHELSOHN
How many German families were there in Kulmhof (Chelmno)?
10 or 1 1 , l'd say.
Germans from Wolhnia and 2 families from the Reich,
the Bauers and us.
And you ?
Us, the Michelsohns.
How did you wind up in Kulmhof ?
l was born in Laage,
and l was sent to Kulmhof.
They were looking for volunteer settlers,
and l signed up. That's how l got there.
First in Warthbrucken (Kolo),
then Chelmno... Kulmhof.
Directly from Laage ?
No, l left from Munster.
Did you opt to go to Kulmhof ?
No, l asked for Wartheland.
Why ?
A pioneering spirit.
You were young !
Oh yes, l was young.
You wanted to be useful ?
Yes.
What was your first impression of Wartheland ?
lt was primitive. Super-primitive.
Meaning...?
Even worse,
worse than primitive.
Difficult to understand, right ?
But why...?
The sanitary facilities were disastrous.
The only toilet was in Warthbrucken, in the town.
You had to go there. The rest was a disaster.
Why a disaster ?
There were no toilets at all !
There were privies.
l can't tell you
how primitive it was.
Astonishing !
Why did you choose such a primitive place ?
l was young, you know.
You can't imagine such places exist.
You don't believe it. But that's how it was.
This was the whole village.
A very small village,
straggling along the road. Just a few houses.
There was the church, the castle,
a store, too,
the administrative building and the school.
The castle was next to the church,
with a high board fence around both.
How far was your house from the church ?
lt was just opposite... 150 feet.
Mrs. MlCHELSOHN was the Nazi teacher's wife
Did you see the gas vans ?
No... Yes, from the outside. They shuttled back and forth
l never looke inside... l didn't see Jews in them.
l only saw things from outside,
the Jews' arrival, their disposition,
how they were loaded aboard.
Since World War l, the castle
had been in ruins.
Only part of it could still be used.
That's where the Jews were taken.
This ruined castle was used...
For housing and de-lousing the Poles, and so on.
The Jews !
Yes, the Jews.
Why do you call them ''Poles'' and not ''Jews'' ?
Sometimes, l get them mixed up.
There's a difference between Poles and Jews ?
Oh yes !
What difference ?
The Poles weren't exterminated,
and the Jews were. That's the difference.
An external difference, right ?
And the inner difference ?
l can't assess that. l don't know enough
about psychology and anthropology.
The difference between the Poles and the Jews ?
Anyway, they couldn't stand each other.
On January 19, 1942,
the rabbi of Grabow, Jacob Schulmann,
wrote the following letter to his friends in Lodz :
''My very dear friends,
''/ didn't write sooner: / was sure of what /'d heard.
''A/as, to our great grief, we now know a//.
''/'ve spoken to an eye-witness who managed to escape.
''He to/d me everything.
''They're exterminated in Che/mno, near Dombie,
''and they're a// buried in the nearby Rzuszow forest.
''The Jews are ki//ed in 2 ways by shooting or gas.
''/t's just happened to thousand of Lodz Jews.
''Do not think that this is being written by a madman.
''A/as, it is the tragic, horrib/e truth.
''Horror, horror / Man, shed thy c/othes,
''cover thy head with ashes, run in the streets
''and dance in thy madness.
''/ am so weary that my pen can no /onger write.
''Creator of the universe, he/p us /''
The creator did not help the Jews of Grabow.
With their rabi, they all died in the gas van at Chelmno
a few weeks later.
Chelmno is only 12 miles from Grabow.
Were there a lot of Jews here in Grabow ?
A lot, quite a few.
They were sent to Chelmno.
Has she always lived near the synagogue ?
Yes. The Poles' word is ''Buzinica'', not synagogue.
She says it's now a furniture warehouse
but they didn't harm it from a religious point of view.
lt hasn't been... desecrated.
Does she remember the rabbi at the synagogue ?
The synagogue in GRABOW
She says she's 80 now and her memory isn't too good,
and the Jews have been gone for 40 years.